Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT/SPACEDIG/V15_2/V15NO284.TXT

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Date: Mon,  5 Oct 92 05:01:21
From: Space Digest maintainer <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Subject: Space Digest V15 #284
To: Space Digest Readers
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Space Digest                Mon,  5 Oct 92       Volume 15 : Issue 284

Today's Topics:
                     Amber (Was: Re: Population)
                       another sad anniversary
                             BLACK HOLES
              Controversy over V-2 anniversary (2 msgs)
                 Goddard's influence or lack thereof
      Goldin hails Pluto mission (Re: Sayonara, Mariner Mark II)
                    LIST OF SPACE LAUNCHES WANTED
            Pioneer Venus Out of Fuel, Orbit Deteroriating
                     Sputnik I - 35th anniversary
                       The Art of Robert McCall
        Toutatis impact in 2000 AD? (was Re: Help !) (2 msgs)
 Von Braun -- Hero, Villain, or Both? (was Re: Controversy over V-2)
                           Wealth in Space

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 05:57:51 GMT
From: Joe Dellinger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Amber (Was: Re: Population)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.geo.geology

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (John Roberts) writes...
> I believe the current (and recent) record for DNA extraction is ~25 million
> years, for a termite trapped in amber. Reconstructing the entire genetic
> code from DNA fragments and using that code to produce a living organism
> are additional challenges.

    In the Sept 1992 "Natural History" magazine, Stephen J. Gould
writes that the "current" record is for chloroplast DNA from preserved tree
leaves in the Clarkia lake beds, 17-22 Million years old. The Clarkia
preservation is extremely unusual: leaves falling right into an anoxic lake
bottom, rapid burial, and an anoxic environment continuously maintained until
present. Even so they still haven't managed to get nuclear DNA.... yet.

    He says the "previous" record was from a 13000 year old Sloth.
From .013 to 22 is a pretty healthy jump!

    If as you indicate the Clarkia record has recently been broken (I'm
sure Gould would have mentioned it if he had known about it when writing
the article) I'd like to hear more details!

    If you do manage to clone an ancient termite, please don't let it
loose in Hawaii. We get dem plenty already.

     /\    /\    /\/\/\/\/\/\/\.-.-.-.-.......___________
    /  \  /  \  /Hawaii Institute of Geophysics, Honolulu\/\/\.-.-....__
___/    \/    \/Joe Dellinger, Internet: [e-mail]\/\.-.__

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 03:47:25 GMT
From: Henry Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: another sad anniversary
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (FRANK NEY) writes:
>Is there any way to turn ALSEP back on once we get the ground station
>set up properly?  Or was it a no-return type of prodedure?

Such turnoff procedures are usually irreversible, I believe, to minimize
the chances of dying hardware later reversing them on its own.  I'm not
sure about ALSEP in particular.

In any event, I suspect that the ALSEP RTGs have long since passed the
point where they no longer supply enough power to keep things running.
Limits were being felt there at the time of turnoff.
--
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  [e-mail]  utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 05:15:49 GMT
From: Charles Bo Wu <[e-mail]>
Subject: BLACK HOLES
Newsgroups: sci.space

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Sasha Degner) writes:

>Black holes are extremely fascinating seeing that so many theories have
>been developed about them. I have a couple of questions about them and
>if anyone knows anything in answer to my questions please inform me.
>
>1) What exactly are black holes?
>2) Is there any truth in the theory that they may be created by alien
>life forms?
>3) Is there a black hole close to our galaxy?

    I suggest you to read the book "A Brief History of Time" by
Stephen Hawking. An excellent book that tells you just about anything a
normal person would want to know about black holes and the Universe.
--

============================================================================
Charles Bo Wu                   Home #: 204-949-0721    Work #: 204-453-4444
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada      E-Mail: [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 00:00:00 GMT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Controversy over V-2 anniversary
Newsgroups: sci.space

Lines: 97
Source-Info:  Sender is really [e-mail]
Source-Info:  Sender is really [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mary Shafer) writes...
>On Sun, 4 Oct 1992 03:33:00 GMT, [e-mail] said:
>
>> If you really want to press the point and be so high and mighty about it
>> then why did we use the rocket team to build our rockets? Krafft Erike
>> was instrumental in the Atlas design and the Von Braun Team were instrumental
>> in the development of the Redstone, Jupiter, Saturn I and Saturn V.  The
>> rocket team was a spoil of war that we took from the Germans. In past wars
>> the spoils were the wealth of a nation.  The spoils that we took in WWII were
>> the most valuable of all, technology. The Ampex tape recorders and our entire
>> television industry was taken from the Germans and developed by us after the
>> war. The Russians took the manufacturing technology of the Germans,
>> ripping up entire factories and shipping them to Russia, including the
>> Miettlework factory for V2's.
>
>I certainly wouldn't have treated them like mythic heroes, the way we
>did.  This is a perfect example of the end being used to justify the
>means, with the spectre of the vile godless commies sweeping like a
>red tide over the peace-loving peoples of the free world.  (Oops, I
>think peace-loving peoples are commies--I may have gotten my propaganda
>mixed up.)
>
>That still doesn't make it right.  Not persecuting people for crimes
>against humanity because they may be useful to you is wrong.  Period.
>
>> There are many other examples of things that we use and rely on every day
>> that came from that sorry episode in history. No ones hands are clean and
>> to beat this horse without an understanding of the history is to grossly
>> distort reality.
>
>Are you old enough to remember the Cuban Missile Crisis?  I am.  I was
>in high school and I can remember going to bed not knowing if I'd wake
>up in the morning to an intact country.
>
>I figure that if I feel like being a moral absolutist, I have the right.
>I don't have to "understand" before I can judge.  Being illegitimate,
>being gassed in WWI, etc., don't make Hitler forgivable.  Having savage
>reparations inflicted on Germany after WWI doesn't make Kristallnacht
>OK.  That's just not how it goes.
>
>Furthermore, I think this attitude of yours that nobody's hands are
>clean so people can't be criticized without an understanding of their
>history is in large part responsible for the decline of modern
>morality.  You have to step up and take responsibility for your actions,
>no matter what--you can't wuss out with an unhappy childhood or a mean
>mommy or "everybody's doing it".  If it's wrong, it's wrong.
>
>Mary

You totally missed the point of my post Mary. What I was referring to is
the other things that when put in context make anything that Von Braun did
look like Zero which it was.

What about Truman's bullying of Joe Stalin at The last conference at the
end of the war that from Soviet documents recently opened up, was the
thing that started the cold war.

What about all of the British and American Multinational corporations that
retained their ties with their German counterpart throughout the war. If
you are truly curious look up the role in IG Farbin and their partners in
the Gas Chambers and slave labor camps.

What about the role of the British Crown at the end of WWII to keep the
Dutch concentration camp prisioners in the camps for EIGHT months after WWII
in order to cemet their own control over trade in indonesia? I have an
eye witness for that one.

What about the Japanese and the using of human guinea pigs, both Soviet and
American for cold weather studies? These studies helped the Japanese
medical industry gain a great advantage after the war. The commandant of
the camps that did this was the president of the firm till he died.


The Russians, what about all that they did in the name of the motherland.

I would not defend Von Braun if there was any thing linking him in any way
to the concentration camps. He and the team had no control or even any
ties to the concentration camps. My source there is the book "The Rocket
Scientists" Available at the Alabama Space and Rocket Center. Buy it and
learn something about what you speak of.

The OSI tried to railroad Arthur Rudolf, the only member of the team that had
any contacts at Meittlework. Nothing evidence was ever found linking even
him to mistreatment of concentration camp personnel.  Even Weitzman has
publically said that the German Rocket scientist did nothing in that vein to
warrant their attention.

If The Israeli's have no evidence and the OSI has no evidence, who the heck
are you to say that he had anything to do with this subject?  Mary please,
you are an intelligent person. Quit making claims like this unless you know
what you are talking about.

Dennis, University of Alabama in Huntsville

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 1992 01:06:04 GMT
From: Shari L Brooks <[e-mail]>
Subject: Controversy over V-2 anniversary
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] writes (in response to Mary Schafer's
post decrying the WWII actions leading up to the creation/manufacture of the
V-2):

>You totally missed the point of my post Mary. What I was referring to is
>the other things that when put in context make anything that Von Braun did
>look like Zero which it was.

>What about Truman's bullying of Joe Stalin at The last conference at the
>end of the war that from Soviet documents recently opened up, was the
>thing that started the cold war.

>What about all of the British and American Multinational corporations that
>retained their ties with their German counterpart throughout the war. If
>you are truly curious look up the role in IG Farbin and their partners in
>the Gas Chambers and slave labor camps.

>What about the role of the British Crown at the end of WWII to keep the
>Dutch concentration camp prisioners in the camps for EIGHT months after WWII
>in order to cemet their own control over trade in indonesia? I have an
>eye witness for that one.

>What about the Japanese and the using of human guinea pigs, both Soviet and
>American for cold weather studies? These studies helped the Japanese
>medical industry gain a great advantage after the war. The commandant of
>the camps that did this was the president of the firm till he died.

>The Russians, what about all that they did in the name of the motherland.

I fail to see how the actions of these others have any bearing whatsoever
on the actions Van Braun did or did not do whilst still in Nazi Germany.
If people, corporations or governments managed to get away with what some
would consider inexcusable crimes, that does not *excuse* the crimes of
those who were caught.  Good grief, this is a lesson we all learned in
elementary school.

--
If you blow fire against the wind, take care to not get the smoke in your eyes.
      Big & Growly Dragon-monster        |       [e-mail]
     ------> shari brooks <-------       |       [e-mail]
                             All opinions are my own.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 03:44:29 GMT
From: Henry Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Goddard's influence or lack thereof
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Coffman) writes:
>>>... like someone belittling Goddard because it was
>>>Von Braun who capitalized on his work...
>>
>>early practical development of rockets in both Germany and the US did not
>>owe much to Goddard except a few bits of basic concept and inspiration,
>>because Goddard published hardly anything about his later work.  Von Braun
>>drew much more on the early experimental work of the VfR -- which he was
>>personally involved in -- than on Goddard's more advanced but little-known
>>efforts.
>
>I had the impression from reading several histories of rocketry that
>Goddard and Oberth carried on a lively correspondence through the
>BIS. Thus I assumed that Von Braun benefited from Goddard's work...

I'd be interested to see references on this.  I checked the obvious source:
Willy Ley's "Rockets, Missiles, and Men in Space"... obvious because Ley
was *there*, involved with the VfR from the start.  He says that the VfR
thought they were the first in the world to fly liquid-fuel rockets, because
essentially nothing was known of Goddard's experimental work until his
Guggenheim report in 1936.  By then, the VfR was defunct and von Braun's
military team was already flying technology demonstrators and working on
preliminary design of the A4 (aka V-2).

In 1929, Ley says that Goddard "curtly declined" to correspond with the
VfR on the subject.  He may have corresponded with Oberth about theoretical
issues, but he appears to have been entirely uncommunicative about the
practical side.
--
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  [e-mail]  utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 02:14:50 GMT
From: Dave Tholen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Goldin hails Pluto mission (Re: Sayonara, Mariner Mark II)
Newsgroups: sci.space

Bill Higgins writes:

>> That was the old NASA.  In Goldin's NASA, we fully expect the Pluto mission
>> cost to include launch, and the current budget ceiling we're looking at is
>> in the 400 million ballpark, including launch.  The spacecraft design is
>> quite a challenge, but Rob Staehle and colleagues haven't shrunk from it.

> I was going by the report in *Aviation Week*, 31 August issue, page
> 22, which says:
>
>    JPL planners have been directed to design a mission that would
>    cost no more than $400 million in Fiscal 1992 dollars for both
>    spacecraft, not including launch vehicle costs.  The project
>    currently is before NASA Administrator Daniel S. Goldin for his
>    decision.

It would seem the confusion is over the costs for one spacecraft or two.
OPSWG has been looking at several alternatives, each with a cost cap,
including launch, of around $400 million.  Just a few short months ago,
we were comparing "Pluto small", a <100 kg spacecraft on a very fast direct
trajectory to Pluto using a Titan IV launch, with "Pluto intermediate", a
much bigger spacecraft on a slower, gravity-assisted trajectory, using an
Altas-Centaur launch.  Both came in around $400 million, but for the former,
the launch dominated the cost, whereas for the latter, the spacecraft
dominated the cost.

Still, we continued to push the twin spacecraft concept, because it was one
way to get a good look at both sides.  When Goldin picked up on the Pluto
mission, he liked the twin spacecraft idea, so the cost cap for the total
mission has gone up, but we're still looking at $400 million, including
launch, for a single spacecraft.  Of course, with two spacecraft, the costs
will not quite double.  It's just a coincidence of the math that you can do
two spacecraft for $400 million, excluding launch, or one spacecraft for
$400 million, including launch.  Naturally, there is still concern that
Congress won't go for a twin spacecraft mission, so we may be back to the
$400 million cost cap, including launch, for a single spacecraft.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 01:55:43 GMT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: LIST OF SPACE LAUNCHES WANTED
Newsgroups: sci.space

I may be visiting the United States in 1993.   Since childhood I have had a
lifelong interest in space exploration, and for this reason I would like to
time my visit to Florida so that I can watch a shuttle launch.
Please could someone e-mail to me a list of the proposed schedule for
such flights for 1993.   Also, are there any other interesting or historical
flights (shuttle or otherwise) taking off from any other part of the United
States that might be worth watching?

Also, I may be visiting Europe and several states of the CIS.   Does anyone
have a list of Russian launches during this period and information on how I
might get to see them?   Alternatively, are there any other historic or
significant launches anywhere else in the world?

Thanks to anyone who can help me on this.

Andrew Hoy
Political Science Department
University of Canterbury
Christchurch, New Zealand.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 05:15:39 GMT
From: "Aaron Wigley [Wigs]" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Pioneer Venus Out of Fuel, Orbit Deteroriating
Newsgroups: sci.space

Ron Baalke ([e-mail]) wrote:
: The spacecraft's orbit is deteroriating, and it is expected to plunge into the
: atmosphere of Venus within a week.

What is the current operation status of Pioneer Venus?
Would we be able to get any useful data as it enters Venus's atmosphere,
or will its method of destruction be of no real use to us?

The Wigs of Oz,
Aaron Wigley

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 00:20:30 GMT
From: Bruce Watson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sputnik I - 35th anniversary
Newsgroups: sci.space

35 years ago today, the world's first artificial earth satellite was
launched. Before October 4, 1957 the earth had but one moon. Today
the earth has approximately 7000 moons.

--
Bruce Watson (wats@scicom)  Tumbra, Zorkovick; Sparkula zoom krackadomando.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 04:44:04 GMT
From: Craig Keithley <[e-mail]>
Subject: The Art of Robert McCall
Newsgroups: sci.space

I noticed "The Art of Robert McCall" at a bookstore on Saturday.
Unfortunately it was locked up and I didn't have time to ask to see it.
Anyone checked it out?  How does it compare to "Our World In Space" (also
featuring McCall's work)?  I expect/hope that there's a lot of new stuff,
seeing as "Our World In Space" was published almost twenty years ago.

Does anyone know if any of McCall's work is available in print form?

Craig Keithley
Apple Computer, Inc.
[e-mail]
Anything not forbidden is mandatory.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 04:20:46 GMT
From: Dave Tholen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Toutatis impact in 2000 AD? (was Re: Help !)
Newsgroups: sci.space

Ian Taylor writes:

>> Of course Toutatis
>> is NOT coming in randomly, and even for its chaotic orbit we know the
>> position well enough to say that over the next few encounters it will not
>> be hitting and after that its encounters are not so close.

> As you know Toutatis's position _well enough_, perhaps you or someone else can
> answer Bill Higgins previous question about what the error is in its predicted
> position at Earth "encounter"?

Less than 0.05 Earth radii.  How much less depends on just how much astrometry
had been obtained so far this opposition.  A new orbit solution hasn't been
done yet (or at least not published yet).

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 06:55:07 GMT
From: Nick Szabo <[e-mail]>
Subject: Toutatis impact in 2000 AD? (was Re: Help !)
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Martin Connors) writes:

>[Earth's diameter is]
>000044 AU so even if Toutatis was coming in randomly within a circle of
>radius 0.011 AU the geometrical chances of impact would be about ten in a
>million. Maybe double that for gravitational focussing.

This translates to (2e1/1e6)*(5e9) or 10,000 dead people, actuarily
speaking, or 0.2 per 100,000 population.  The death rate from
airline crashes is 0.04 per 100,000 people.  Translated into
more meaningful terms, in the year 2000 each of us has five
times as much chance of being killed by Toutatis as dying in an
airline crash.  Presumeabely a more accurate orbit has or soon will
be predicted, so that we can do a better analysis than
the quoted, which uses the expected miss distance as the measurement
error.

BTW, how much does this year's close approach to the earth perturb
Toutatis' orbit, and what is the worst-case magnification between
errors in this year's expected flyby distance and that in 2000?


--
[e-mail]        Tuesday, November third  ##  Libertarian  $$  vote
Tuesday  ^^ Libertarian  --  change  **  choice && November 3rd @@Libertarian

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 04:17:35 GMT
From: Henry Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Von Braun -- Hero, Villain, or Both? (was Re: Controversy over V-2)
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mary Shafer) writes:
>It's odd that you'd see it this way--in my circle of acquaintances at
>work, the young are the most rigid and intolerant.  Maybe those of us
>in our forties have succumbed to apathy, but I just don't see the
>burning moral outrage in them that I do in the folks in their twenties...
>Reading the Net tends to reinforce this opinion.

I'm not sure I agree with Mary on this one.  I'd tentatively assume that
most of the net participants are pretty young, given the net's roots in
educational institutions... and on the occasions when I've forcefully
expressed my opinions about those responsible for the Challenger disaster
in particular, the responses have been at least 95% hostile, citing all
manner of reasons why "I vas chust following orders" should be considered
acceptable, or at least excusable, behavior.

Returning somewhat to the original topic, I'd be interested in seeing
details on von Braun's alleged involvement with mistreatment of slave
workers and the like.  As far as I know, and as far as a quick check
of some of the usual historical sources (e.g. Ordway&Sharpe) shows, he
had very little to do with V-2 production, which is where most of the
abuses took place.  An awful lot of people seem to believe that von Braun
was boss of the whole V-2 project and hence responsible for anything
done in its name... but he wasn't.  He was technical head of design and
testing at Peenemuende.  As best I can tell, his primary involvement
with production (apart from constant redesign work because this or that
material was no longer available in production quantities) appears to
have been as a technical consultant when quality problems loomed (which
they did constantly, since the whole process was rushed a bit too much
for consistently good results).  I find no indication that he had any
*authority* over the production effort.  I'd be curious to hear of
specific evidence to the contrary.
--
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  [e-mail]  utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 1992 07:26:46 GMT
From: Kian-Tat Lim <[e-mail]>
Subject: Wealth in Space
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Paul Dietz) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] ("Phil G. Fraering") writes:
>> Anyone have any comments on large flimsy structure mass spectrometers?
>
>The problem there is that you then need to make the *magnets* really
>large.

We've got really large magnets in space: the Earth's magnetic field,
or Jupiter's, or the Sun's.

Objection #1: The fields are relatively weak.
Solution: Increase the path length, and decrease the ion speed.  Not really
    a problem given lots of vacuum.

Objection #2: Nonuniformity and instability of field.
Solution: ???  I think this one's a show-stopper, unfortunately.  If we're
    dealing with well-separated masses, perhaps large collection buckets
    can compensate for instabilities.

Objection #3: Even with a 100-mile-long spectrometer, you still can't get
    throughputs in the tons/year range.
Solution: ???  I think this one's a show-stopper, too.

--
Kian-Tat Lim ([e-mail], KTL @ CITCHEM.BITNET, GEnie: K.LIM1)
Ex-System Manager, Materials & Molecular Simulation Center, Caltech
Henry Spencer left-of-|, Steve Lamont p*, Margaret "*" Puckette signature fan

------------------------------

End of Space Digest Volume 15 : Issue 284
------------------------------